Discussion:
[Crystal-develop] A challenge: deferred lighting and shadows, looking for a programmer
Jorrit Tyberghein
2013-07-18 11:13:39 UTC
Permalink
Hi all,

Since some time Crystal Space has a deferred render manager which
implements deferred
lighting with shadows. Matthieu Kraus worked on this but doesn't have time
right now to
continue working on this (since he is now working on another part of CS as
part of
Google Summer of Code). He is available for advice though.

As such this new render manager works nicely. It produces nice visuals with
real dynamic
shadows. However there are still some issues which make quality less then
desired. I
would like to use this render manager in my Indie game project and I need
professional
quality there.

Firstly performance is a problem. The performance right now goes down
rather fast with
number of lights and objects. While of course deferred lighting will always
be somewhat
slow (and it is also up to the level designer to construct optimal levels)
I think that
some improvements should be possible here.

Second there are various quality issues. First the display is not stable
when moving
around. Shadows flicker and there are very disturbing slight movements of
the shadows.

Thirdly there are also errors in the shadow casting. Sometimes light leaks
through at
places where it shouldn't for example.


I would like to find someone who can help improve the deferred render
manager until
we can get shadows as good as we can get in commercial games. I can provide
test levels
to demonstrate various problems and Matthieu and Frank Richter kan give
advice on
various part of the Crystal Space internals. I think that some familiarity
with shaders
and rendering/lighting techniques would be a great bonus here.


Matthieu already mentioned a few things that could be done:
- Caching: this is probably one of the most important things to implement.
- Tweaks on how depth values are stored and retreived.
- Better filtering (like PCF)

So who would like to try? I think this is an important area in a modern
game engine
so it would be a worthwhile task.


Greetings,


--
Project Manager of Crystal Space and CEL (http://www.crystalspace3d.org/)
Project Manager of AresEd (https://code.google.com/p/ares/)
Support: https://www.gittip.com/jorritTyb/
Jorrit Tyberghein
2013-07-18 11:23:30 UTC
Permalink
- Caching: this is probably one of the most important things to implement.

With caching we mean shadow maps and crop matrices.

Greetings,
--
Project Manager of Crystal Space and CEL
(http://www.crystalspace3d.org/<http://www.crystalspace3d.org/main/Main_Page>
)
Project Manager of AresEd (https://code.google.com/p/ares/)
Support: https://www.gittip.com/jorritTyb/
Steel Style
2013-07-18 16:51:18 UTC
Permalink
Hello,

I think that the idea of improving this render manager is really worthwhile.
I would like to try as I'm have some free time, but I never implemented
deferred shading or deferred lighting.

So if someone acknowledged want to work on it, it might be better,
otherwise I'm up to challenging myself.

Steel
Post by Jorrit Tyberghein
Hi all,
Since some time Crystal Space has a deferred render manager which
implements deferred
lighting with shadows. Matthieu Kraus worked on this but doesn't have
time right now to
continue working on this (since he is now working on another part of
CS as part of
Google Summer of Code). He is available for advice though.
As such this new render manager works nicely. It produces nice visuals
with real dynamic
shadows. However there are still some issues which make quality less
then desired. I
would like to use this render manager in my Indie game project and I
need professional
quality there.
Firstly performance is a problem. The performance right now goes down
rather fast with
number of lights and objects. While of course deferred lighting will
always be somewhat
slow (and it is also up to the level designer to construct optimal
levels) I think that
some improvements should be possible here.
Second there are various quality issues. First the display is not
stable when moving
around. Shadows flicker and there are very disturbing slight movements
of the shadows.
Thirdly there are also errors in the shadow casting. Sometimes light
leaks through at
places where it shouldn't for example.
I would like to find someone who can help improve the deferred render
manager until
we can get shadows as good as we can get in commercial games. I can
provide test levels
to demonstrate various problems and Matthieu and Frank Richter kan
give advice on
various part of the Crystal Space internals. I think that some
familiarity with shaders
and rendering/lighting techniques would be a great bonus here.
- Caching: this is probably one of the most important things to implement.
- Tweaks on how depth values are stored and retreived.
- Better filtering (like PCF)
So who would like to try? I think this is an important area in a
modern game engine
so it would be a worthwhile task.
Greetings,
--
Project Manager of Crystal Space and CEL (http://www.crystalspace3d.org/)
Project Manager of AresEd (https://code.google.com/p/ares/)
Support: https://www.gittip.com/jorritTyb/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Jorrit Tyberghein
2013-07-18 18:59:00 UTC
Permalink
That's great! How do you want to proceed? You can enable the defered render
manager in engine.cfg

A test level that I'm currently using can be downloaded from
http://www.crystalspace3d.org/downloads/tmp/ghosts.zip

This level shows various problems. Just walk around and you'll see. Inside
the house it is dark. Using 'f' (flashlight)
in walktest you can get some lighting.

Let me know what more info you need to get started.
Post by Steel Style
Hello,
I think that the idea of improving this render manager is really worthwhile.
I would like to try as I'm have some free time, but I never implemented
deferred shading or deferred lighting.
So if someone acknowledged want to work on it, it might be better,
otherwise I'm up to challenging myself.
Steel
Hi all,
Since some time Crystal Space has a deferred render manager which
implements deferred
lighting with shadows. Matthieu Kraus worked on this but doesn't have time
right now to
continue working on this (since he is now working on another part of CS as
part of
Google Summer of Code). He is available for advice though.
As such this new render manager works nicely. It produces nice visuals
with real dynamic
shadows. However there are still some issues which make quality less then
desired. I
would like to use this render manager in my Indie game project and I need
professional
quality there.
Firstly performance is a problem. The performance right now goes down
rather fast with
number of lights and objects. While of course deferred lighting will
always be somewhat
slow (and it is also up to the level designer to construct optimal levels)
I think that
some improvements should be possible here.
Second there are various quality issues. First the display is not stable
when moving
around. Shadows flicker and there are very disturbing slight movements of
the shadows.
Thirdly there are also errors in the shadow casting. Sometimes light leaks
through at
places where it shouldn't for example.
I would like to find someone who can help improve the deferred render
manager until
we can get shadows as good as we can get in commercial games. I can
provide test levels
to demonstrate various problems and Matthieu and Frank Richter kan give
advice on
various part of the Crystal Space internals. I think that some familiarity
with shaders
and rendering/lighting techniques would be a great bonus here.
- Caching: this is probably one of the most important things to implement.
- Tweaks on how depth values are stored and retreived.
- Better filtering (like PCF)
So who would like to try? I think this is an important area in a modern
game engine
so it would be a worthwhile task.
Greetings,
--
Project Manager of Crystal Space and CEL (http://www.crystalspace3d.org/)
Project Manager of AresEd (https://code.google.com/p/ares/)
Support: https://www.gittip.com/jorritTyb/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Get end-to-end visibility with application monitoring from AppDynamics
Isolate bottlenecks and diagnose root cause in seconds.
Start your free trial of AppDynamics Pro today!http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48808831&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
See everything from the browser to the database with AppDynamics
Get end-to-end visibility with application monitoring from AppDynamics
Isolate bottlenecks and diagnose root cause in seconds.
Start your free trial of AppDynamics Pro today!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48808831&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
Crystal-develop mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/crystal-develop
--
Project Manager of Crystal Space and CEL
(http://www.crystalspace3d.org/<http://www.crystalspace3d.org/main/Main_Page>
)
Project Manager of AresEd (https://code.google.com/p/ares/)
Support: https://www.gittip.com/jorritTyb/
Steel Style
2013-07-18 20:35:38 UTC
Permalink
I don't know yet I'll try look at the demo and the code those following
days.
Then I'll probably send a mail explaining how I want to proceed.
Post by Jorrit Tyberghein
That's great! How do you want to proceed? You can enable the defered
render manager in engine.cfg
A test level that I'm currently using can be downloaded from
http://www.crystalspace3d.org/downloads/tmp/ghosts.zip
This level shows various problems. Just walk around and you'll see.
Inside the house it is dark. Using 'f' (flashlight)
in walktest you can get some lighting.
Let me know what more info you need to get started.
Hello,
I think that the idea of improving this render manager is really worthwhile.
I would like to try as I'm have some free time, but I never implemented
deferred shading or deferred lighting.
So if someone acknowledged want to work on it, it might be better,
otherwise I'm up to challenging myself.
Steel
Post by Jorrit Tyberghein
Hi all,
Since some time Crystal Space has a deferred render manager which
implements deferred
lighting with shadows. Matthieu Kraus worked on this but doesn't
have time right now to
continue working on this (since he is now working on another part
of CS as part of
Google Summer of Code). He is available for advice though.
As such this new render manager works nicely. It produces nice
visuals with real dynamic
shadows. However there are still some issues which make quality
less then desired. I
would like to use this render manager in my Indie game project
and I need professional
quality there.
Firstly performance is a problem. The performance right now goes
down rather fast with
number of lights and objects. While of course deferred lighting
will always be somewhat
slow (and it is also up to the level designer to construct
optimal levels) I think that
some improvements should be possible here.
Second there are various quality issues. First the display is not
stable when moving
around. Shadows flicker and there are very disturbing slight
movements of the shadows.
Thirdly there are also errors in the shadow casting. Sometimes
light leaks through at
places where it shouldn't for example.
I would like to find someone who can help improve the deferred
render manager until
we can get shadows as good as we can get in commercial games. I
can provide test levels
to demonstrate various problems and Matthieu and Frank Richter
kan give advice on
various part of the Crystal Space internals. I think that some
familiarity with shaders
and rendering/lighting techniques would be a great bonus here.
- Caching: this is probably one of the most important things to implement.
- Tweaks on how depth values are stored and retreived.
- Better filtering (like PCF)
So who would like to try? I think this is an important area in a
modern game engine
so it would be a worthwhile task.
Greetings,
--
Project Manager of Crystal Space and CEL
(http://www.crystalspace3d.org/)
Project Manager of AresEd (https://code.google.com/p/ares/)
Support: https://www.gittip.com/jorritTyb/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Get end-to-end visibility with application monitoring from AppDynamics
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Start your free trial of AppDynamics Pro today!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48808831&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
Crystal-develop mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/crystal-develop
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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_______________________________________________
Crystal-develop mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/crystal-develop
--
Project Manager of Crystal Space and CEL
(http://www.crystalspace3d.org/
<http://www.crystalspace3d.org/main/Main_Page>)
Project Manager of AresEd (https://code.google.com/p/ares/)
Support: https://www.gittip.com/jorritTyb/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Jorrit Tyberghein
2013-07-19 03:52:46 UTC
Permalink
Ok, feel free to ask on IRC as well.

Greetings,
Post by Steel Style
I don't know yet I'll try look at the demo and the code those following
days.
Then I'll probably send a mail explaining how I want to proceed.
That's great! How do you want to proceed? You can enable the defered
render manager in engine.cfg
A test level that I'm currently using can be downloaded from
http://www.crystalspace3d.org/downloads/tmp/ghosts.zip
This level shows various problems. Just walk around and you'll see.
Inside the house it is dark. Using 'f' (flashlight)
in walktest you can get some lighting.
Let me know what more info you need to get started.
Post by Steel Style
Hello,
I think that the idea of improving this render manager is really worthwhile.
I would like to try as I'm have some free time, but I never implemented
deferred shading or deferred lighting.
So if someone acknowledged want to work on it, it might be better,
otherwise I'm up to challenging myself.
Steel
Hi all,
Since some time Crystal Space has a deferred render manager which
implements deferred
lighting with shadows. Matthieu Kraus worked on this but doesn't have
time right now to
continue working on this (since he is now working on another part of CS
as part of
Google Summer of Code). He is available for advice though.
As such this new render manager works nicely. It produces nice visuals
with real dynamic
shadows. However there are still some issues which make quality less then
desired. I
would like to use this render manager in my Indie game project and I need
professional
quality there.
Firstly performance is a problem. The performance right now goes down
rather fast with
number of lights and objects. While of course deferred lighting will
always be somewhat
slow (and it is also up to the level designer to construct optimal
levels) I think that
some improvements should be possible here.
Second there are various quality issues. First the display is not stable
when moving
around. Shadows flicker and there are very disturbing slight movements of
the shadows.
Thirdly there are also errors in the shadow casting. Sometimes light
leaks through at
places where it shouldn't for example.
I would like to find someone who can help improve the deferred render
manager until
we can get shadows as good as we can get in commercial games. I can
provide test levels
to demonstrate various problems and Matthieu and Frank Richter kan give
advice on
various part of the Crystal Space internals. I think that some
familiarity with shaders
and rendering/lighting techniques would be a great bonus here.
- Caching: this is probably one of the most important things to implement.
- Tweaks on how depth values are stored and retreived.
- Better filtering (like PCF)
So who would like to try? I think this is an important area in a modern
game engine
so it would be a worthwhile task.
Greetings,
--
Project Manager of Crystal Space and CEL (http://www.crystalspace3d.org/)
Project Manager of AresEd (https://code.google.com/p/ares/)
Support: https://www.gittip.com/jorritTyb/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
See everything from the browser to the database with AppDynamics
Get end-to-end visibility with application monitoring from AppDynamics
Isolate bottlenecks and diagnose root cause in seconds.
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_______________________________________________
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Get end-to-end visibility with application monitoring from AppDynamics
Isolate bottlenecks and diagnose root cause in seconds.
Start your free trial of AppDynamics Pro today!
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_______________________________________________
Crystal-develop mailing list
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--
Project Manager of Crystal Space and CEL (http://www.crystalspace3d.org/<http://www.crystalspace3d.org/main/Main_Page>
)
Project Manager of AresEd (https://code.google.com/p/ares/)
Support: https://www.gittip.com/jorritTyb/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
See everything from the browser to the database with AppDynamics
Get end-to-end visibility with application monitoring from AppDynamics
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_______________________________________________
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
See everything from the browser to the database with AppDynamics
Get end-to-end visibility with application monitoring from AppDynamics
Isolate bottlenecks and diagnose root cause in seconds.
Start your free trial of AppDynamics Pro today!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48808831&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
Crystal-develop mailing list
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--
Project Manager of Crystal Space and CEL
(http://www.crystalspace3d.org/<http://www.crystalspace3d.org/main/Main_Page>
)
Project Manager of AresEd (https://code.google.com/p/ares/)
Support: https://www.gittip.com/jorritTyb/
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